This paper is in response to Rocana dasa’s article “Faith Before Initiation” posted on the Sampradaya Sun website. Many questions and questionable statements were presented in that article. I am prepared to answer them all however I think it is best to concentrate on thoroughly addressing one of the incorrect statements first:

“Nowhere within all of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, or elsewhere in our previous diksa guru line, can ISKCON scholars uncover any authorization for the present “guru fall down" policy, with disciple re-initiation being the solution.”

tatra gurur yadi visadrsakari isvare bhrantah krsna yaso vimukho vilasa-vinodam na angikaroti svayam va durabhimani loka-stavaih krsnatvam prapnoti tarhi tyajya eva. (64)

tatra--in this matter; guruh--the guru; yadi--if; vi-sadrsa-- improprieties; kari--commits; isvare--about the Lord; bhrantah-- bewildered; krsna-yasah--the glories of Sri Krsna; vimukhah--against; vilasa--pastimes (of Krsna); vinodam--relishing; na—does not; angi- karoti--accept; svayam--personally; va--or; durabhimani—terribly conceited; loka-stavaih--by the praises and flattery of the public; krsnatvam--darkness; prapnoti--comes to; tarhi--then; tyajyah--to be rejected; eva--simply. (64)

But if the spiritual master commits improprieties, is bewildered about the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is averse to expanding Lord Krsna's glories, personally refuses to hear or chant about the pastimes of the Lord, or has become utterly puffed up by the false praises of ignorant persons and thus falls into darkness, then the spiritual master is simply to be rejected. (64)

katham eva gurus tyajya iti no, krsna-bhava-lobhat krsna-praptaye guror asrayah krtas tad-anantaram yadi tasmin gurau asuribhavas tarhi kim kartavyam asura-gurum tyaktva sri krsna-bhaktimantam gurum anyam bhajet. (65)

katham--how (is it possible); eva--indeed; guruh--the guru; tyajyah--is to be rejected; iti--thus; no--(if one thinks) not; krsna-bhava-lobhat--out of eagerness for Sri Krsna's transcendental nature; krsna-praptaye--to achieve Sri Krsna; guroh--of a guru; asrayah krtah--one took shelter; tad-anantaram-- after that; yadi--if; tasmin gurau--in that guru; asuri-bhavah-- the demonic nature; tarhi--then; kim kartavyam--what is to be done; asura-gurum--the asura guru; tyaktva--rejecting; sri krsna-bhaktimantam--full of devotion for Sri Krsna; gurum--guru; anyam-- another; bhajet--one should accept and worship. (65)

Under those circumstances one should not think, "How can I give up my spiritual master?" With a strong desire to achieve spontaneous devotional service and attain the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master. But if after that the spiritual master takes on a demonic mentality, what is to be done? Rejecting such a demonic guru, in his place one should accept a Krsna conscious spiritual master and worship him. (65)

tasya krsna-balad asurasya guror balam mardaniyam iti vaisnava-bhajana-vicarah (66)

tasya--his; krsna-balat--by strength derived from Lord Krsna; asurasya guroh--of the asura guru; balam--the strength, influence; mardaniyam--is to be smashed, destroyed; iti--thus; vasnava-bhajana--(the way of) serving and accepting Vaisnavas; vicaraih--the correct analysis of. (66)

By the strength of the devotional service of the Krsna conscious spiritual master, the ill effects of the demonic spiritual master are destroyed. This is the authorized way of Vaisnava devotional service. (66)

evam tu drsta bahavah sri krsna caitanyavatare (67)

evam--thus; tu--indeed; drstah--have been seen; bahavah--many (cases); sri-krsna-caitanya-avatare--during the appearance of Lord Caitanya. (67)

During the appearance of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu many examples of this were seen. (67)

yo vakti nyaya-rahitam anyayena srnoti yah tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

yah--one who; vakti--speaks; nyaya--right and good sense; rahitam—that which is devoid of; anyayena--improperly; srnoti--hears; yah--one who; tau--the two; ubhau--both; narakam--to hell; ghoram--terrible; vrajatah--they go; kalam--time; aksayam--unending.

He who gives [such] foolish instructions and he who listens to them will both enter into perpetual hell.

iti sri narada-pancaratre. ata eva durata evaradhyas tadrso guruh; vaisnava-dvesi cet parityajya eva---

iti--thus; sri narada-pancaratre--in the scripture of the name; ata eva--therefore; duratah--at a distance; eva--only; aradhyah-- to be worshipped; tadrsah guruh--such a spiritual master; vaisnava-vidvesi--inimical to the devotees; cet--if; parityajah-- to be renounced; eva--simply.

This is stated in the Narada Pancaratra. Therefore, such a guru should be worshipped only from a distance. Indeed, if the guru is envious of Vaisnavas one should give him up:

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

guror api--even of a guru; avaliptasya--proud and contaminated; karya-akaryam--what is to be done and what is not to be done; ajanatah—who does not know; utpatha--the wrong path; pratipannasya--who has taken to; parityagah--rejection; vidhiyate--is enjoined.

If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected. [Mahabharata]

iti smaranat, tasya vaisnava-bhava-rahityenavaisnavataya
"avaisnavopadistena" ity-adi-vacana-visayatvac ca,

yathokta-laksanasya sri-guror avidyamanatayam tu tasyaiva maha-bhagavatasyaikasya nitya-sevanam paramam sreyah. sa ca sri-guruvat sama-vasanah svasmin krpalu-cittas ca grahyah---

iti--thus; smaranat--from the smrti; tasya--his; vaisnava-bhava-- of the nature of a Vaisnava; rahityena--by the absence; avaisnavataya--by the quality of a nondevotee; "avaisnavopadistena"--in the verse beginning with those words; iti-adi-vacana--of this statement; visayatvat--from the meaning; ca--also. yatha--thus; ukta-laksanasya--with the qualities stated; sri guror--of a spiritual master; avidyamanatayam--in the absence; tu--however; tasya--his; eva--indeed; maha-bhagavatasya--of an advanced devotee; ekasya--of one; nitya-sevanam--regular service; paramam—the greatest; sreyah--good; sah--he; ca--also; sri guruvat--like a spiritual master; sama-vasanah--with the same intention or desire; svasmin—toward oneself; krpalu--merciful; cittah--mentality; ca--also; grahyah--to be accepted.

As stated in smti [in this verse from Mahabharata], when one finds that the guru is bereft of the Vaisnava mentality and showing instead the qualities of a nondevotee, one should consider him the avaisnava mentioned in the verse “avaisnavopadistena”.

If one finds himself without a guru with the good qualifications previously described, one should find one advanced devotee and serve him constantly, and that will give one the highest benefit. And if that advanced devotee is merciful toward him and desires to reciprocate, acting like a bona fide spiritual master in his attitude, then one should accept him:

yasya yat-samgatih pumso manivat syat sa tad-gunah sva-kularddhyai tato
dhiman sva-yuthyan eva samsrayet

yasya--of whom; yat--with whom; sangatih--association; pumsah--of a person; manivat--like a gem; syat--becomes; tat-gunah--that same quality; sva-kula--of one's own community; rddhyai--for the success; tatah--therefore; dhiman--a wise person; sva-yuthyan--of those of one's own community; eva--certainly; samsrayet--one must take shelter.

"By associating with a person, one develops his qualities, just as a piece of glass acquires the qualities of a touchstone by coming in touch with it. Therefore an intelligent person, for the sake of his own spiritual community, should associate with more advanced devotees from his own sampradaya."

iti sri hari-bhakti-sudhodaya-drstya krpam vina tasmin cittaratya ca

iti--thus; sri hari-bhakti-sudhodaya--of the book of the name; drstya--according to the view; krpam--mercy; vina--without; tasmin—toward him (the guru); citta--in one's heart; aratya--not having love.

This verse is found in the Hari-Bhakti-Sudhodaya. If that advanced devotee is not merciful toward one, one will not develop a worshipful attitude toward him.

“I have heard it said that a person previously initiated and instructed by an unworthy person should find a worthy teacher and accept initiation and instruction from him. For some days I have heard your good instructions and now I have faith in the Vaisnava religion. Please be merciful. Teach me the Vaisnava religion and, when your teaching is concluded, initiate me and purify me.” (Jaiva-dharma: Chapter 4: page 31)

The same wonderful thought rose in the hearts of Vijaya-kumara and Vrajanatha. With one mind they decided that they must accept initiation (diksa) from the saintly babaji. When he was a child, Vijaya-kumara was initiated by his family-guru. Vrajanatha has received gayatri initiation but not initiation into any other mantras. From the saintly babaji they had learned that by chanting a mantra given by an impersonalist guru one goes to hell. Therefore they decided to be properly re-initiated by a Vaisnava spiritual master. If he is initiated by a perfect pure devotee, the disciple very quickly attains perfection by chanting the sacred mantras. Therefore they both decided, "Tomorrow morning we will first bathe in the Ganges and then accept initiation from the worshipable and saintly babaji."

Their hearts fixed in that decision, the next morning they bathed in the Ganges, decorated their bodies with twelve tilaka markings as previously described, and then offered dandavat obeisances to the feet of Srila Raghunatha dasa Babaji. The saintly babaji was a perfect devotee. Aware of what they were thinking, he asked them, "Why have you come this morning?" The two of them replied, "O master, we are fallen and worthless. Please be merciful to us." The saintly babaji took them separately to his cottage and gave them the eighteen-syllable mantra. Again and again chanting the mantra, the two disciples became maddened with spiritual love. Calling out "Jaya Gauranga,” they danced. Seeing the tulasi beads on their necks, their splendid sacred threads, their twelve tilaka marks, their bright faces, some beginning symptoms of sattvika-bhava ecstasy on their bodies, and streams of tears flowing from their eyes, the saintly babaji embraced them and said, "Today you have purified me." Again and again the two disciples took the dust of the saintly babaji's feet and placed it on their heads. (Jaiva Dharma: Chapter 21; page 224)

The following is Srila Bhaktivinoda’s immediate elaboration (in Bengali text) supporting the action taken by the Vaisnava guru and disciples cited above. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura states [5]:

“At the time of choosing the spiritual master, the prospective disciple should test to see whether the spiritual master has traveled to the farther shore of the Vedic scriptures and the science of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master must be qualified to teach all aspects of the spiritual science.”

diksa guru apartiyajya bate, kintu duiti karane tini parityajya hoite parena. sisya yakhan guru-varana kariyachilena. takhana yadi tattvajna o vaisnava guru pariksa na kariya thakena, taha hoile karyakale sei gurura dvara kona karya haya na boliya tanhake parityaga karite haya. Ihara bahutara sastra-pramana ache; yatha sri-narada-pancaratre

diksa-guru--initiating spiritual master; aparityajya--not to be rejected; bate--indeed; kintu--but; duiti--two; karane--reasons; tini--he; parityajya--rejectable; hoite parena--can be; sisya-- disciple; yakhan--when; guru varan--accepting a spiritual master; kariyachilena--did; thakan--then; yadi--if; tattvajna--one who has knowledge about the spiritual reality; o--and; vaisnava-guru-- Vaisnava spiritual master; pariksa--test, examination; na--not; kariya--doing; thakena--did; taha hoile--then; karyakale--in due course of time; sei--that; gurura dvara--by that guru; kona--any; karya--work, purpose; haya na--does not happen; boliya--because; tanhake--him; parityaga--reject; karite haya--should; ihara--of this; bahutara--much; sastra pramana--scriptural evidence; ache-- there is; yatha--for example; sri-narada-pancaratre--in Sri Narada Pancaratra.

“It is true that the diksa guru should not be rejected. But there are two instances where one may legitimately reject him. First, a disciple may have accepted a spiritual master without thoroughly ascertaining whether the spiritual master was a Vaisnava practically conversant with transcendental knowledge. Later, however, the disciple may realize that the absolute objective will not be accomplished through the instructions of that guru. In that case, the guru should be rejected. There are many items of scriptural evidence in this regard:”

jini (acarya-vese) anyaya arthat satvat-sastra-virodhi katha kirtana karena evam jini (sisya-rupe) anyaya bhabe taha srabana karena, tanhara ubhayera ananta-kala ghora narake gamana karena

jini--one who; acarya vese--in the guise of an acarya; anyaya--wrong; arthat--that is; satvata-sastra-virodhi--detrimental to the scriptures in the mode of goodness; katha--instructions; kirtana karena--teaches; evam--and; jini--one who; sisya rupe--as a disciple; anyaya bhabe--wrongly; taha--that; sravana karena--listens; tanhara ubhayera--both of them; ananta-kala--for endless time; ghora--dreadful; narake--in hell; gamana karena—enter, go.

The Narada Pancaratra states: "One who (in the guise of an acarya) gives unauthorized instructions detrimental to scriptural injunctions and one who (as a disciple) listens to those instructions will enter into hell eternally."

Below is Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Bengali translation of the Sanskrit verse.

bhogya-visaya-lipta, kimkartavya-vimudha evam bhakti byatit itar panthanugami byakti guru hoileo parityaga karibe.

bhogya-visaya-lipta--absorbed in sense gratification; kimkartavya-vimudha--bewildered; evam--and; bhakti vyatita--other than devotion; itar--inferior; panthanugami--a follower of the path; vyakti--person; guru hoileo--even if he is a guru; parityaga--reject; karibe--one should.

"If the guru becomes attached to sense gratification, loses his sense of duty, and follows a degraded path, a path other than devotional service to the Lord, he should be rejected." [Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva 179.25]

stri-sangi o krsna-abhakta avaisnavera upadista mantra labha karile naraka gamana haya. ataeva yatha-sastra punaraya vaisnava- gurura nikata mantra grahana karibe.

stri-sangi--one who associates with women; o--and; krsna-abhakta-- who is
not a devotee of Krsna; avaisnavera--of a nondevotee; upadista--instructed;
mantra--a mantra; labha karile--if one receives; naraka--hell; gamana
haya--goes; ataeva--therefore; yatha-sastra--according to the scriptures;
punaraya--again; vaisnava-gurura--a Vaisnava spiritual master; nikata--from;
mantra--mantra; grahana karibe--one should receive.

"If one receives a mantra from an avaisnava illictly connected with women and devoid of attachment to Krsna, one goes to hell. Therefore, one must take reinitiation from a Vaisnava guru according to scriptural rules." (Narada Pancaratra)

dvitiya karana ei ye. guru-varana samaye gurudeva vaisnava o tattvajna chilena, kintu sanga-dose pare mayavadi va vaisnava- vidvesi hoiya jan; erupa guruke partyaga kara kartavya; grhita guru yadi mayavadi va vaisnava-vidvesi va papasakta

dvitiya--second; karana--cause; ei ye--is; guru-varana samaye--at the time of accepting the spiritual master; gurudeva--the spiritual master; vaisnava--Vaisnava; o--and; tattvajna--one who has knowledge about the spiritual reality; chilena--was; kintu--but; sanga-dose--due to bad association; pare--afterwards; mayavadi--impersonalist; va--or; vaisnava-vidvesi--offensive to Vaisnavas; hoiya jan--became; erupe--in this way; guruke--to the guru; parityaga--reject; kara kartavya--is a must;

The second instance in which one may reject the guru is when the guru was at the time of one's initiation a Vaisnava conversant in the Absolute Truth but later due to bad association became a mayavadi or an offender to the Vaisnavas. That guru should be rejected. (Jaiva Dharma; Chapter 20, page 213)

“Those who desire their own welfare should give up the materialistic, proud, so-called guru and take proper initiation from a Vaisnava guru. If one has a prominent false ego and a material conception of life, then he will naturally become envious of the transcendental Vaisnavas. One should give up the so-called guru who is envious of the Vaisnavas, knowing him to be a nondevotee. If one fails to do so, one will incur sin and deviate from the path of devotion. Sri Jiva Gosvami Prabhu has instructed the devotees of the Lord how to nourish their practice of devotional service in the following way:

vaisnava-dvesi cet parityajya eva, “guror apy avaliptasya” ti smaranat. tasya vaisnava-bhava-rahityenavaisnavataya "avaisnavopadistena" iti vacana-visayatvac ca. yathokta-laksanasya sri-guror avidyamanatayam tu tasyaiva maha-bhagavatasyaikasya nitya-sevanam paramam sreyah

“If a so-called guru is envious of the Vaisnavas, then one should reject him, remembering the guror apy avaliptasya verse [9]. This so-called guru does not have the qualities of a Vaisnava, therefore such a nondevotee should not be accepted as a guru. Those devotees who desire eternal welfare should say farewell to such so-called gurus, knowing them to be the subjects of the avaisnavopadistena verse. [10] In the absence of a genuine Vaisnava guru who fits the description given above, one should constantly serve a maha-bhagavata for one’s ultimate welfare.

“Those who blaspheme Vaisnavas can never become devoted to Lord Hari. Due to their sinful activities, those who are not devotees of Lord Krsna cannot become Visnu-janas...

In His instructions to Sri Sanatana, Sriman Mahaprabhu has personally mentioned two main reasons why a Vaisnava may lose his standing as a Vaisnava. If a practitioner indulges in either of them, he can no longer remain a Hari-jana...Just as a brahmana who does not behave properly and lacks the appropriate brahminical qualities becomes a sudra or outcaste, so a Hari-jana whose devotional service to Lord Krsna becomes interrupted and who comes under the influence of women due to material absorption falls from the position of a Vaisnava and then considers that following the varnasrama principles is of utmost importance.”

"But when one leaves a spiritual master, the spiritual master, there may be some reason. That reason is also given in the sastra, gurur api avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah. Karya akarya. If the spiritual master does not know what is actually to be done, what is actually not to be done, and he acts against the rules and regulations of the sastra, then such spiritual master may be given up. But so long you do not find the spiritual master is doing against the principles of sastra or guru, then if you give up the company of spiritual master, that is not good for you. That is your downfall.

First of all, you must take sufficient time to study the movements of a spiritual master. Spiritual master is one-the spiritual master. Because there may be many spiritual master, but if their business is one-to satisfy Krsna-although they're many, they're one. Although they're many, they are still one. The principle is one: to satisfy Krsna." (Lecture: Tokyo Jan 30, 74)

"Anyone who is supposed to be a guru but who goes against the principle of visnu-bhakti cannot be accepted as guru. If one has falsely accepted such a guru, one should reject him. Such a guru is described as follows (Mahabharata, Udyoga 179.25):

guror apy avaliptasya
karyakaryam ajanatah
utpatha-pratipannasya
parityago vidhiyate

Srila Jiva Gosvami has advised that such a useless guru, a family priest acting as guru, should be given up, and that the proper, bona-fide guru should be accepted." (Srimad Bhagavatam 8.20.1 Purport)

"So such kind of guru can be at least rejected. That is Jiva Gosvami's... Karya-karyam ajanatah. A guru who does not know what to do and what not to do, but by mistake, by mistakenly I have accepted somebody as guru, he can be rejected. By rejecting him, you can accept an actual bona fide guru. (Srila Prabhupada Lecture: August 5, 1973)

[Krsna speaking to Arjuna] "Although they [Dronacarya and Bhismadeva] are in the position of guru, you can reject them." Karya-karyam ajanatah. "They do not know factually.". Krsna is advising, "He has forgotten his duty. He should have joined you. Therefore he is no more in the position of guru. He has wrongly joined the other party." (Lecture; August 5, 1973)

kahena yadi, punarapi yoga-patta diya
samskara kariye uttama-sampradaye aniya'

kahena-says; yadi-if; punarapi-again; yoga-patta diya-offering Him saffron cloth; samskara-reformatory process; kariye-I perform; uttama-first-class; sampradaye-to the community; aniya-bringing.

Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya then suggested, "If Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would like, I could bring Him into a first-class sampradaya by offering Him saffron cloth and performing the reformatory process again." (Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya; 6.76)